Russia – Ukraine: from mythmaking to modernization and cooperation.

What is destructive role of myths and prejudices in the relations development between Russia and Ukraine? What can be as constructive basis for cooperation? Mr. Teleshun Sergei Alexandrovich, who is the head of political analytics and forecasting department, the director of the educational-scientific complex of the National Academy of the State administration under the President of Ukraine, Professor, Doctor of Political Sciences, answers above questions and other ones in his interview for our Internet portal.

-What are the main political and economic trends, you can mention in the modern Russian-Ukrainian relations? What plays at present time a bigger role in it - ideological concepts or economic pragmatism?

The most important destructive factor in our countries cooperation is the mythmaking that interferes to understand the format of the relations between Russia and Ukraine, and to implement this format in practice. That supposes, first of all, the development of meaningful integration processes among broad layers of society, and not only in the leading circles. What is this mythmaking at the modern stage? It was possible to see in the recent 7 years of Viktor Yushchenko presidency. Now we have faced with the fact that the new authority awaited the parity relations with Russia, but upon that, the expectations were justified is not in all things. And the reason for it is in well-established myths as to the ways and possibilities of the Russian-Ukrainian cooperation. This situation led to the condition when the relations, especially in the economic sphere between two states, have lost dynamics. The Ukrainian oligarchs strive to compete in European and Russian markets as well as the Russian ones. At the same time, the expectation of the Russian political and economic establishment that only political rhetoric will allow to activate the economic expansion was wrong. And on the part of Ukraine the representatives of Russia oriented business groups, could not get those or other dividends as raw materials preferences, i.e., gas prices remained without changes.

At that, any attempts to build the relations based on political and economic rationalism strike upon the very stable myths about cooperation between our countries. Namely at this stage the contradictions between Ukrainian and Russian capital that cover many scopes of activities, arise. Specifically, it is the gas transportation field, where the most of the Russian and Ukrainian establishment made not only financial but also political capital. The second field is the military industrial complex, the competition in the weapon markets. The third one includes the following monopoly industry trends: the chemical industry, ore-dressing and processing enterprises, nuclear power industry that is very important for both Russia and Ukraine, aviation industry and other ones.
In practice, Ukrainian and Russian capital could not settle on the plan of action. And it speaks that for a long time we have lived both non-coplanar and on account of the myths. Some forces in Ukraine require the separation from Russia, others want the coming close together with Russia, but nobody says how to work with Russia exactly. The same thing is that and Russia has not created balanced and civilized policy as to Ukraine. But that Ukraine and that Russia that were 10 years ago, 20 years ago they will not be the same. It is quite another information and political space. And the situation is that Russia has a fine attitude as to the USA, Libya, but not always the one is adequate to the nearest neighbors. The same thing concerns the Ukrainian political and economic establishment that goes to extremes.

So, the existing myths of the past - is one of the main obstacles of the Russian-Ukrainian relations. Figuratively speaking, in the Russian-Ukrainian relations we move forward with turned back head. Or we build some kind of mythmaking, using roots. It is essential. But we must go, of course, keeping the both history and culture, after all with our eyes forward.

- Can the cooperation in the field of implementation of innovations, business innovation, be as the impulse of the development of relations between our states at qualitatively new level?

It is absolutely correct approach. I think that in this situation we should not continue to divide the old stock, it is necessary, just, to find the common point of view in the context of the Ukrainian and Russian economies modernization. We must be interested in each other competitively, in the field of economics, politics and science. When we will be interested in each other competitively, then the modernization question will unite us and not the reverse. And it will not be conceived as a political doctrine of expansion and manipulation, as well as practicability and rationality of co-development. This thing is very important. It can be called by our efficient development formula. It is interesting there, where there is possibility constructively and effectively to realize potential of both Ukraine and Russia. And what takes place now? The Russian establishment conceives Ukraine as unspecified satellite partner, close vassal, and Ukrainian elites conceive Russia as an aggressive older brother. It is outdated formula. We should be interested in each other. But today unfortunately the interest is not at the level of the middle class, which is the backbone of the both Russian state and Ukrainian one, and at the level of 3% of the population that represents the business influence groups and oligarchic ones. And of these 3%, only 1% can be domestic economy oriented. The rest 2% of business groups is the Euro-Atlantic vector oriented. Where then will undertake financial capital, common projects, investment and development be occurred from? What balance we have in this situation?

They are only ideological myths and stories of old friendship. The main problem is that concrete, constructive foundation of cooperation is not supported. We should be interested in each other. It is principal thing; it is the key phrase, when we are looking for the partner. As the saying is, the central thing after the first night is the desire to stay to talk. These subjects are very important: the constructive basis of development, the interests that provide real reading of development, when the funds are clear and results from it are obvious. And if you are required with some thing, but you or do not understand result, or it does not suit you, it is called aggression, rather than a cooperation. Therefore, the repulsive interaction occurs.

This is to say, we must take for course of the further development, the system, mutually beneficial modernization of economics, relations, cultural world of our countries and on this constructive ground we should organize the integration. I generally believe that, with Internet, purely English, Russian, Ukrainian peace can not be a priori. And we all are busy with the concepts of early and midyears of 20-th century. The actuality of national borders themselves, around which there is the attempt to build the unity has decreased. The nationality, in my opinion, when you are interesting. Today nationality will be determined by modernization, and that society will be interesting, which is modernized.

- Do some real projects for organizations of joint innovation institutes, centers exist now?

Unfortunately, there are not the ones. Unfortunately, most of them were political technologies of the people, oriented or on Russian vector or on Ukrainian one. I’m the supporter of real modernization. And now we see, at the most, only the assertion of political interests under the guise of the economic projects. In secret service it is called the influence agents or the part of the technologies of the manipulation characteristic. Here I don’t open any secrets and it’s normal. It is own position, when you take lobbyists, which present your interests. By the way, I’m not against these variants. The westerns are called grant-eaters, the pro-Russians are called worse in Ukraine, it doesn’t matter, and the essence is the same. But, we should approach the other fact, the fact of the mutual modernization, joint development of countries that have common interests. Not necessarily in all things and in some components that could be interesting. For example, the cooperation with Europe - on this basis we can build not contradictions but, conversely, as mutual lobbyists to defend the realization of our interests. In addition, no one have to be concerned that some differences exist, but to find in this advantages for the general position on international arena.

In addition there is one important fact. Please, pay attention that at the level of both middle class and scientific conference we sure don’t communicate or communicate too little. Instead of it the Russian-Ukrainian relations “build” all possible hallmark characters, which, in addition, are too odious. But constructive dialogue of intellectual and business establishment, and not only oligarchs, is absent. The problem is that we are joined, but we can’t use it. Instead of it, we try to enforce “friendship” using formal principles, which only offend.

- Do you think how successfully Victor Yanukovich tries to find the compromises between Western and Eastern Ukraine and the corresponding influence groups? What the general problems those influencing the Russian-Ukrainian relations are in this process?

Well, first of all, there is not clear humanitarian policy at time of Yanukovich rule. It is a myth. There is, of course, the line of Dmitry Tabachnik, who is the Minister of Education, but it is only the line of one part of ruling party. Secondly, of course, there is own line of opposition, which is separated in our country and presented by large number of political forces.

But today 90% of population is looked up to economic priorities, system of high standard of living, not only to mythologemes of ideological character. There is a definite cynicism in it, but also there is some positivism in it too – it is very hard to stuff people’s heads with propaganda, informational trumpery. To some extent “city squares” had made the enormous thing by modeling citizen-critic that carefully refers to ideological gossips despite its color. And now it is very difficult for both parties. In this case both representatives of “oranges” and representatives of the authority can’t do a number on head that is positive. In other words the socially active citizen appears who looks for its place in society’s and government growth.

Regarding glorification and de-glorification of Bandera, removing of elevated attention to separate events of historical past – this issue isn’t simple. There is a very different attitude to this in western and eastern regions of the country, which engenders many arguments. I’m not supporting deliberate bestowal of heroes. I believe that one should study every historical character within one sole pantheon of historical characters with sign of minus and plus. The history, together with its heroes, must be studied in whole, not to accent one’s attention on some particular fragments. Other thing is that the peculiarities of Ukrainian policy are also matter. Of course, the past should be surely studied and remembered, in order to understand, what should be taken and what should be discarded. It is impossible to move in future without history, past fundament, but the future shouldn’t be substituted with it.

Concerning the linguistic problem – I’m the supporter of knowing three languages as minimum. Ukrainian should be as state language – it is my personal opinion and the studying at ideal level of English, Russian and Chinese languages are necessarily. The possibility should be given to choose, because the language issue within contemporary conditions is closely related to economic sphere. Our oligarchs somehow don’t ride on Ukrainian or Russian cars; they prefer “Maybach” and “Mercedes”. We live in commodity world of competitive society. For some reason 99% of Russian establishment lives in Courchevel, in London. But they do not live in Grozny or Novosibirsk. That’s why the English language dominates. If Mr. Gates lived in Russia then Russian language would be predominant one. If gentlemen from Forbes top 20 lived in Russia, but they take away capital, take away children, take away business interests.

That’s why I believe that the Ukrainian is the state language, but compulsory should be knowledge of languages, which are widely used at our place – Russian and English. An opportunity must be given to really build our contemporary society without speculation and populism on the language problem. And then we won’t bend under any capital – both the Russians and the Ukrainians. Then the possibility to choose and the opportunity to manipulate, using ideological and mythological stamps.

- In connection with the contour in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, what is the probability that society dissatisfaction in Ukraine can grow into such actions?

I’ll give you the exact data for your website for the first time. 63% of Ukrainian population is not satisfied with the things as they are now, 34% are ready to participate in the events of social outcry’s, 19% are ready to participate in the radical events that trench upon terrorism. It is very serious number for both authorities in power and opposition. But 73% of them do not trust both authorities in power and opposition. In other words, the population is well informed, and everyone understands pretty well who with him and why. The population is not satisfied with the political-administrative management, though today there are no personalities that could be the leaders for the one. And of course such social uprisings under the leadership of some anarcho-syndicalists groups plus specific political forces can provide serious consequences. The information distribution is both internet and little social groups, which well united in Ukraine. In Russia the quite different situation is, the immense territory, traditions, pretty closed borders they are play specific role.

For that matter Ukraine has enjoyed the feeling of freedom and relatively big communications. Furthermore, Ukraine is the sphere of the geopolitical interests of Russia too that aims to take control over Ukraine, and USA that is interested in not letting the Ukraine out of the sphere of its influence, and other multi-faceted intentions of Europe. The loose of the population dissatisfaction can coincide with some interests of these forces. But it can explode so hard that countries, which wish to dominate, wouldn’t know what hit them.